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User talk:Hero King Marth
To view messages posted in 2014, see here. To view messages posted in 2015, see here. To view messages posted in 2016, see here. To view messages posted in 2017, see here. To view messages posted in 2018, see here. Untitled (Kageprofan24100) Hi! A bit earlier I made some edits to the main characters' pages and in general, to update the pages. I have a concern about Garry's stated age, which as you probably know is a constant source of controversy within the fandom. I'm aware many fans estimate his age around 18, but since his age is officially unknown and he could very well be a young male (or simply a very tall teenager in high school/young adult), I think stating his age as around there (16-18+) or so would be fine, with possibly a note on the matter. Is this something that can be done? Another example: some fans think because Garry might be a smoker, and the age of consent in Japan was 20 for smoking for many years, that'd place him around 20+. But that fact is not confirmed, he could have easily began smoking as a teenager (depending on where Ib takes place, too), and Ib is said to take place in the far future (vgperson's notes noted the paintings' numbers reflect current years). Japan is currently lowering their age of consent to 18 (last I heard) so even if the smoking bit was true circa 2012, it'd actually be irrelevant by now. (Also, before changing the age of consent to 20, I recall it was 18 before as well?) It's a common anime trope however that high schoolers can even sneak things like smoking, part-time jobs despite age requirements, etc. under the radar (also again depending where it takes place). (Also, was there ever an image reference for Ib's official ''stated age, with ''the Japanese text included? If one notes the Japanese school system, Ib's assumed grade based on an age of 9 would actually place her as 9-going-on-10, not just 9, which can be noted too.) In comparison, if Garry was a high schooler, that'd place him around the ages of 15-18. You can view this link for reference. (Basically, I was editing past fanon assumptions and pointing out similar details.) Another change I noted was Garry's manner of speech. While vgperson assumed maybe Ib saw her as an "onee-chan", that may be innacurate, as it was only their theory. Ib never actually uses ''"Garry-onee-chan", or they wouldn't have had to "theorize" that. Garry uses that manner of speech ''in the general sense, not just towards Ib. Also, "onee-chan" doesn't even mean [direct] "big sister", even though it is a commonly used honorific that can even be used by unrelated people, or by one for themself (like Garry may do). Instead, something like the more formal "ane" (or, talking about ''your sister) would be more of an indication? I've studied basic Japanese / taken courses for it and this has also been clarified by Japanese fans many times in the past, but it's still an extremely common misconception, even by well recognized translators, which is why I made those notes. (Also, clarifications by Japanese fans on the matter tend to go ignored or unseen by the fandom...). I'm not sure if vgperson knew those things, and they translated Ib a long time ago... Does this make sense? Please let me know, thanks! Kageprofan24100 (talk) :Regarding Garry's age, the reason I left it at 18+ was because that's the most popular assumed age, and, to be honest, the most likely age range. While it's true that Garry could just possibly be a(n) (older-looking) teenager, judging by the character/plot concepts and designs, it's more likely that kouri planned the two main characters to be the young child/dependable young adult (guardian) match (Ib is not the only RPG Maker indie horror game with this kind of match). It's also because Garry seems to be independent and really mature; I think the game's deeper plot significances that the younger audience won't as easily notice are directed more towards an older audience. And I know that the Japanese age of consent has been recently lowered to 18, but the age of which it was reasonable to view pornographic material, for example, was already 18 (and, yes, I know you could say that he could be an older teenager who views them anyway and that teenagers already understand that kind of material before they're even 18). Either way, I think kouri designed Garry to be a gentle, caring character and not a (delinquent) teenager, especially from the way he acts in-game and in the official manga strips. :Regarding Ib's age, I have in the past tried to look for her officially stated age, but I couldn't find anything. However, this was a more recent search, but I do remember that a long time ago, when I first picked up this game, I was able to find it somewhere in kouri's blog (I think?) or in one of vgperson's tumblr posts. Either way, I was certain that I was able to find it somewhere, just not anymore. :Yes, I'm aware Ib never used ''onee-chan in the Japanese text. The reason a lot of vgperson's theories/claims have been left on many of this wiki's pages is because while vgperson was translating this game, she worked with kouri by interviewing him a lot with any questions. Basically, other than her theories, if there was anything she needed to clarify with kouri, she asked him (through e-mails, I believe). I never really looked into much of the onee-chan thing; long ago, I was the only person working on this wiki, so it's not like I could spot everything that might not be necessary on some pages. In this case, I think it's better to leave this sort of thing out of the relationships sections, since I feel those statements aren't necessary and almost seem to digress from the topic. And now that I think of it, I remember that that note used to not be there, under their relationships section. I think someone later added that in, during a time that I was on hiatus, so it was left there. ★Marth 09:48:14|July 16, 2018 ★ ::Thanks very much for the response (and clarifying!) ::Ah, what I meant wasn't exactly that Garry could be a "rough" deliquent teenager, but rather, as you said, a kind/gentle, caring character (who may just happen to be a very tall teenager that might be slightly deliquent at times, but not the *overly* "rough" type, if that makes sense?) Just, while I understand the fandom assumes a lot, it seems like a lot of those assumptions come from places like this Wiki itself, because he has no official age. I just don't think it's right to assume an "assigned" age like that when there's no stated age for official reference... at the least, "between around 16 and older" or the like might be reasonable? ::Also, taking this reference from tvtropes, but - "If he's 16 or so, he wouldn't be an adult, but he would be able to get to an art gallery on his own; he wouldn't be old enough to drive (by Japanese standards), but if he lived close enough he could easily have walked there himself." Of course that depends on if it's taking place in Japan, but Garry can easily be mostly-independant without having to drive/etc., if that makes sense. And I don't recall any mention of driving, etc. at all in the game (aside from the lighter)... ::There was also this mentioned - "In the gameplay there are sections of text on a wall, presumably written by Mary, inviting Ib to be with her in a world with no adults. Now, at first glance that may seem to foreshadow what will likely happen to Garry — Mary seems to hate adults in general, and Garry being one would explain why she tries to get rid of him (and succeeds in most cases) — but since she herself brought Ib and Garry into the twisted gallery world, it would make no sense for Mary to bring in an adult. She must want to get rid of Garry not because of his age, but because he's a rival for Ib's attention and affections" Another commenter did point out it may not have been Mary who wrote it, but still, why would Garry be brought into that world to begin with if Mary/they/whoever it was wanted "no adults"? It does also seem to be a valid theory... ::Also, the petals on the roses were discussed there too - ::"Garry's rose aka his Life Meter has 10 petals. Ib's rose has five. Ib is 9 years old, therefore, if Garry's rose has twice as many petals as hers, he should be twice her age. Ergo, he's 18." ::"By that logic, a 90-year-old would have 45 petals. I can't envision a 90-year-old shrugging off the sort of beating it would take to lose 10 petals, let alone 40." ::"I agree with the above comment. The petals likely don't correspond to age at all. Maybe they're related to body size; Garry could pretty easily be twice as big as Ib (though the sprites make it a bit hard to tell)." ::I think the third comment is a valid theory as well, besides just "child and adult". It also kind of makes the game/plot more interesting (that there's multiple interpretations)? So I think keeping Garry's age vague (and including the possible 16~ range) might be best for summarizing, and maybe those things could be noted too, but.... ::That's actually really interesting about Ib's age, I've searched the blog/etc. posts as well in the past, but also couldn't find any direct reference aside from vgperson's "word" (but no official reference/screencap, which would have been useful for looking up the exact kanji used). If you ever find it again someday, it'd be very neat if it could be directly linked somewhere on her page later on too! But yeah, if the Japanese school system was used, she'd be around the age of 9~10 most likely.... or in general, because unless she literally just had her birthday or it was super close to it still, yeah that. But we may never know... 9~10 can still be assumed though? ::Ahh, I see. I did actually browse this Wiki a few times before closer to 2012, and I kind of recall it maybe wasn't there before? but I didn't know that, either (that it was edited in without your knowledge). I do think it'd be better to leave it out, since Garry seems to use it as a more personal thing / i.e. he uses it towards "everyone" / in general. It wouldn't mean he specifically views Ib as "sisterly" and much more likely has to do with his personal speech pattern/presentation, I think... thanks for clarifying on this too however! Kageprofan24100 (talk) 03:44, July 22, 2018 (UTC) :::Well, a lot of assumptions may come from this wiki, but overall, I think they come from inside the fans' heads. There have been many theories posted on this wiki that I have gotten rid of because of lack of strong evidence and the fact that I don't like adding too many theories into the official articles. If they had theories, those were best posted in the article comments/talk pages of the articles. So, from this premise, you actually have a valid argument about trying not to assume too much about the characters' ages. Another reason I left that kind of age assumption in Garry's article was to give fans a feel of what age range he might be around, although I was not the original person who made those pages/put in that information, and that's why there were some inconsistencies. I adopted this wiki a long time ago, but it was after the original admins on this wiki became inactive. If it helps, I can just remove any indication off of Garry's article especially, since it's not like Ib's parents ages were assumed, for example. I actually don't believe that the setting of the game is in Japan, since the type of outfits they wear seem closer to European styles, and their names aren't Japanese. Of course, they could just be foreigners in Japan, though--or maybe they are in Japan, since several art strips show them wearing yukatas. Either way, the setting of the game is really vague. :::The writings on the wall seem to be more like from the other creatures that live in the cursed gallery, especially the blue dolls. However, whoever was the one(s) who wrote them, they seem to be like-minded with Mary (if it was not Mary who wrote them). It does, in fact, make sense to bring in an adult. If Mary wanted to replace an existence in the real world, then it makes more sense for Mary to try to kill off an adult than for her to kill off a child if she likes to be friends with people near her age (i.e., a child). Another possibility is that the cursed gallery doesn't really have a choice of who it ends up bringing in; according to one theory, Embodiment of Spirit's description implies that only those who have "wholesome bodies" are capable of being kidnapped by the cursed gallery--in this case, that's Garry and Ib. Additionally, some of the wall writings, especially those that mention adults, seem to be specifically targeting Garry, and with the way the plot is written, it seems that Garry is indeed the most despised character in the game, from the point-of-view of the cursed gallery's denizens, especially since he's the only character with a doom counter. :::I never considered the idea that the number of petals specifically correspond to the age number. In fact, the argument doesn't have a strong foundation. Why would 9 be the age for 5 petals and 18 for 10, then? (If you want my opinion, I don't think Garry is 18; rather, he looks to be more like someone in his early 20s.) I also don't think they correspond to body size. Garry does seem to be twice Ib's size (as seen from their reflections in the mirror room), but I think that the number of rose petals are related to maturity (i.e., petals are based on where you are currently in your lifespan; for example, childhood, adolescence, teenage years, young adult, mid-life, seniority, etc.) I wouldn't be surprised if you had less petals, too, around the same number as a child would have if you were a senior (especially since a lot of places where you buy tickets have similar prices for both children and seniors, while adults have to pay a higher price, at least in some Western areas). ★Marth 12:02:34|July 23, 2018 ★ ::::This is a very late reply, but ah, I see, and thank you very much for explaining (and understanding, and making that change!) ::::Though I do see your points, I'd also like to point out a few more details I think tend to go unnoticed by Western fandom. ::::- Despite the claims of him possibly being a "middle aged man", even VGPerson's, Garry does NOT talk like an older middle-aged person actually would. In Japan, middle aged / older-aged male's speak often includes such words as "washi" (personal pronoun), etc. ::::found via source: ::::https://zerudanihongo.tumblr.com/post/177787553279/ ::::(regarding a Zelda character with a similar age issue, though they're a bit more notably adult ranged; regardless, it seems significant.) ::::- Ib's parents seem to be noted here too as "possibly late 20s-early 30s". If that is the case (general observation, here) why is Garry often assumed to be OLDER than them? Isn't it still possible Garry could be a younger teenager too, even if not necessarily under 13 or over 18 / still be considered "adult"? ::::For example, say, if they were actually in France (due to Guertena's name, for example); Garry could be anywhere from 15 (age of consent)-18? ::::"If it helps, I can just remove any indication off of Garry's article especially, since it's not like Ib's parents ages were assumed, for example." - yes, this could help! ::::- There are, in actuality, many anime characters in late elementary - Junior High school who are designed nearly as tall as Garry and yet still in Junior High school, if not earlier. A very good example of one who actually looks quite similar in height and build to Garry and yet is only age 14~15 (at most) range is Jou Kido from Digimon 02. He also tends to give off the senpai-kouhai vibe, something which may have been implied with Garry too (i.e. being responsible / watching over the 'younger' one, despite not being an adult.) even if Garry wasn't older than Ib's parents. ::::https://digimon.wikia.com/wiki/Joe_Kido ::::Granted, these are just observations, but it'd be nice if similar things could be pointed out and noted on the Wiki (even if generalized - like for the last note there, that other character does not have to be specified, but the similar body type/build to other characters of that age range could be noted.) ::::... This is just a personal opinion, but I would also like to add: ::::Perhaps the comments sections on the main characters' articles should be removed/closed? ::::I've noticed many other Wikis don't allow commenting to prevent misspreading of information and harrassment / bashing, and a lot of users here tend to use them simply to say only 'OMG HOW DARE U SHIP IB OR MARY WITH GARRY' not noting any of these Japanese cultural things in favor of ship combat. I think it'd be better if the sections were just closed - fandom as a whole entity is primarily centered on tumblr and twitter now anyway, so anyone needing game answers or tips could easily get them from there, and it'd help prevent a further spread of misinformation regarding his "canon" age range. Perhaps the more generalized info and trivias from here could eventually spread to over there via this Wiki, even if fans have a lot of "fanon" in their heads there too. At the least, they wouldn't be grabbing info on his "canon age" range from this Wiki (though I understand it's noted unconfirmed; fans still tend to run wild with the "info"). ::::"I actually don't believe that the setting of the game is in Japan, since the type of outfits they wear seem closer to European styles, and their names aren't Japanese. Of course, they could just be foreigners in Japan, though--or maybe they are in Japan, since several art strips show them wearing yukatas. Either way, the setting of the game is really vague." ::::It does seem vague, but yeah, they're definitely pictured in traditional Japanese clothing more than once and the creator is Japanese themself... ::::Even if it wasn't Japan, it could always be France as noted above, or even some strange fictional country that shares similarities between the two (lol). ::::Ah, speaking of that, the age of adulthood in Japan was 20 back then, but Garry is also not even noted to have any sort of job or higher education schooling (you would think he would if it was that significant....). ::::Anyhow, thanks for your thoughts! Kageprofan24100 (talk) 08:22, September 20, 2018 (UTC) :::::It's pretty ridiculous to think that Garry is around the same age/older than Ib's parents. In my personal opinion, Garry is around his early 20s, while Ib's parents are in their early 30s. Basically, that's my head-canon. Also, "middle-aged male speech" doesn't apply to Garry anyway, since he uses feminine pronouns. (By the way, it would still make sense if they were French because the French have "male/female speech" as well--although they use adjectives, not pronouns, to distinguish between genders.) :::::Originally, when I first took over this wiki, I turned the article comments feature off because I didn't like it for multiple reasons. The main reason was that I didn't like all the inappropriate comments or the ones that didn't provide any meaningful discussions, and if people really wanted to voice their opinions on things like "I ship this" or "This reminds me of this one anime," then they should just post those kinds of topics in the forums. The only reason I turned it back on was because there was this one user who really wanted to have the article comments back, and since he was a decent contributor at the time, I decided to give him a chance, provided that he helped me to monitor and to remove any inappropriate/irrelevant comments. In the end, he be inactive fairly quickly, and I found myself to be practically the only one keeping track of comments anyway. Since a few users expressed content with the return of the comments, I left the feature on, but I added in new rules to the Community Guidelines shortly after. Of course, if someone were to come to me to ask that I turn the feature back off (before I turn it off myself if too many people break the rules), I'm all ears. ;) ★Marth 06:05:01|September 21, 2018 ★ ::::::First of all, thanks again for your thoughts!! ::::::"It's pretty ridiculous to think that Garry is around the same age/older than Ib's parents." - Yes, I agree! If anything, I'd assume Ib's parents to be closer to middle-aged and Garry younger. Unfortunately, a lot of the remaining/present day fandom seems decided Garry must be anywhere from 25+-45 (like to the point of actually middle-aged) which really doesn't make sense to me... fandom's gonna fandom I guess (lol) but yeah, I definitely would presume he's younger than Ib's parents, even if I'm not wholly certain on "20" exactly. ::::::"(By the way, it would still make sense if they were French because the French have "male/female speech" as well--although they use adjectives, not pronouns, to distinguish between genders.)" - I've actually taken some French classes before in school (lol), this is a good point! To be honest I did originally think they were in France/Europe despite the Japanese clothing in the official art; however, I then very recently found this while re-scanning vgperson's blog (since responding last): ::::::http://vgperson.tumblr.com/post/22100375854/kouris-ib-gallery ::::::“Ib Storyboard” ::::::The design concept for the game was something like a foreign storybook. But the characters were designed to be more globally-relatable. (Or, maybe just Japan…) ::::::^ perhaps this should be added as a trivia note, since a common question seemed to be "where does Ib take place??"? (lol) ::::::Thanks for the explanation on the comments too! That's definitely understandable. Yeah, I think comments are fine if they can be moderated, but if they can't be, and considering what content is usually in these "comments" (i.e. complaining about the "ages"...), honestly, I do think they should be turned off. (If possible anyhow!) ::::::By the way, regarding Ib's own age, I still have yet to find any caps from the game that state this (if I could find it, I'd be able to look up the kanji, or attempt to anyway - at the very least, I do know/recognize the kanji for "age", lol); though I did find this on Ib's fathers' page: ::::::https://ibgame.wikia.com/wiki/Ib%27s_Father ::::::https://ibgame.wikia.com/wiki/File:01_Ib.jpg ::::::"...and he gave Ib a stuffed rabbit on her ninth birthday." ::::::So, this would confirm at one point she did/maybe had a "9"th birthday, though I still have yet to see the "9" mentioned anywhere else, including in-game. (It's also possible this could have been pre-game art? i.e. maybe she'd be a little/at least slightly older in-game, unless the mention of a "9" in the script is true. While I understand where the thought came from, including the theory on the roses signifying age, I'm still looking for confirmation on Ib's age for the sake of having an official source, lol. Also, because I now wonder if maybe they'd have gotten the "9" only from this art and forgot it came from there... I just find it really odd that there's yet to be an actual source of the "9" showing in-game, considering it's technically important info should be sourced if it's true.) ::::::Like, if vgperson had never mentioned that to the fandom at all, I would have presumed Ib to be around the age of a young teenager lol, but "9" seemed quite young, especially if that really is a Japanese school uniform she's wearing. (In most anime I've seen, primary schoolers don't tend to wear those uniforms yet, either...? Though they might, depending, at least, Digimon is also a good example of that, lol. None of the primary schoolers wear uniforms, including the sole 9-year-old in the main group haha.) Maybe it'll remain a mystery where it's located in-script, but for now I at least found those references. ::::::Thanks again! Kageprofan24100 (talk) 15:41, October 1, 2018 (UTC) :::::::I still think Garry is at least 20 because he's stated as a "man" in the game on three occasions. If Ib was older than 9, such as a younger teenager as you say, and if Garry was an older teenager, then their age gap would be too small for Ib to consider Garry to be a "man." I think she would've referred to him as a "boy" instead, if that were the case. But that's just my own opinion. :::::::Well, it's still not entirely certain where the game's story takes place anyway, so I'd rather not write too many things that lean towards more theory and less fact. While we do see them in Japanese clothing in the official art, it doesn't necessarily mean the art is canon to the story. Plenty of artists make little special drawings that have nothing to do with the actual story. Obviously, everything that's displayed in these "specials" do not take place in the actual story at all because in the canon story, Mary dies, so it's impossible for them to celebrate Halloween or New Year's together like that. :::::::And about the article comments--it's all right; I've already turned them off because too many people have violated the Community Guidelines regarding the comments, even though warnings were placed in those guidelines. :::::::I think that when Ib dreams on the Final Stage, her dream is about her most recent birthday, which would be her ninth birthday. Her visit to the gallery is also for her birthday. And I can see kouri doing something like that to let fans connect the dots instead of outright stating out every fact of the story. But since none of this is set in stone, we can only assume that she's at least 9 years old. Since I can't find any evidence stating that she is for sure 9 years old when the game takes place, I'll just adjust her age on the articles to at least 9 years old (9+ on her profile, for example). And I'll remove her age from the synopsis as well. I can't help but think that maybe I've been too influenced by fandom's wide acceptance of her age being 9, leading me to believe that, at some point, I had found evidence when, in reality, I never had. At least that's what seems to be the case. :::::::As a side note, I don't think using one reference such as Digimon is good enough evidence to assume their ages based on height, since the art style is different. And, overall, height doesn't matter when it comes to age. I'm 143.51cm (4 ft 8.5 in.) and I'm a working, legal adult, according to U.S. standards. Yet I'm shorter than the average American middle-schooler, I bet. I still get mistaken for a child. People ask me where my parents are sometimes when I'm alone. ★Marth 06:52:36|October 02, 2018 ★ ::::::::I've just come across an obvious example of Garry referred to as an adult. I noticed it when I was editing the Endings article; in Welcome to the World of Guertena, Mary outright says that Garry is an adult. ★Marth 01:52:54|March 29, 2019 ★ 01:52, March 29, 2019 (UTC) Untitled (GoldiegoldvlogsYT) hi i'm goldiegoldvlogsYT and i'm a fan of creepypasta and other horror stuff. I'm in the 6th grade and i learn lots of new things. GoldiegoldvlogsYT (talk) 01:59, March 3, 2019 (UTC)goldiegoldvlogsYT :Hello. Nice to meet you. I'm not into the horror genre--too squeamish for that kind of stuff. Ib only deploys the jump-scare tactics, however, so this game is fine. Still, I only played this as an exception because I was interested in the story behind the characters and the game when I saw fan art for it from several sources. ★Marth 02:48:27|March 03, 2019 ★ Thank you I just wanted to thank you for your admin offer. I know I've already replied on my talk page, but I forget to thank you for your offer. I didn't realize you thought so highly on me. And yes, I would like to become an admin if you're still willing to have me. Beautyandnotthebeast 22:09, October 13, 2019 (UTC) :You're very welcome! I'd like to thank you for accepting the offer. :> And it's done! You're an admin now. Feel free to let me know if you want me to change your username color as well (and to what color, so that it appears like so anytime your name is linked). ★Marth 02:10:16|October 14, 2019 ★ ::About the username colour, I think yellow might go well (when I saw the Umbrella Man from the Hello Charlotte series, I thought he was really cool, and his eyes had a nice colour), although it won't be the end of the world if it isn't that shade of yellow. Thanks for actually making me an admin. Beautyandnotthebeast 20:26, October 14, 2019 (UTC) :::All right, I used my digital art platform to obtain the hex code for the hue of his eyes, so assuming I did things correctly in the CSS, your username should be in that color soon (and if not, I'll have to see what I did wrong). xD ★Marth 04:54:05|October 15, 2019 ★